Given the typical person's either inability or unwillingness to do basic research or educate themselves on key energy issues, it appears that the transition crowd has decided simply lying about the numbers is the easiest solution to make their cases.
Society's misunderstanding of energy could take a long time to correct, especially in the U.S. where the government just prints money to spend on whatever it wants, like wind and solar subsidies. How that affects energy investors, well, that's why I subscribe because I don't know.
Grok is definitely less biased: Same request for X AI
List a ranking of Energy Sources by their typical EROI (Energy Return on Investment) values:
Answer
Here's a general ranking of energy sources by their typical EROI (Energy Return on Investment) values, based on the information available up to 2024:
Nuclear Energy - Often cited with a high EROI, but exact numbers can vary widely due to differences in technology, accounting for energy costs (like enrichment methods), and whether one includes the energy for decommissioning and waste storage. Estimates suggest an EROI around 75 when considering centrifuge enrichment, but this can be controversial.
Hydropower - Typically has a high EROI due to its long lifespan and low operational energy costs, often cited around 35 or higher.
Coal - Has a relatively high EROI when considering only the extraction; however, when converted to electricity, the EROI drops due to conversion losses, roughly around 30 at the mine mouth, and lower when looking at electricity production.
Natural Gas (Closed-Cycle Gas Turbine) - An EROI that can be quite high at the wellhead, but when used in electricity generation, it's adjusted for efficiency, leading to values like 28.
Oil - Historically high, but as easier-to-reach reserves deplete, the EROI has been declining. At its peak, oil might have had an EROI around 30 or higher, but modern figures, especially for new or unconventional sources like tar sands, can be much lower.
Solar Thermal - An EROI around 9, considering the energy costs for manufacturing and maintenance.
Wind - Wind energy systems can have an EROI around 4 or higher, but this value improves significantly when considering lifetime energy production versus energy invested in manufacturing, installation, and maintenance.
Solar Photovoltaic (PV) - The EROI varies widely with location, technology, and method of calculation but is generally improving with technological advances. Estimates have ranged widely, but as of recent data, an EROI might be around 2 to 9, with newer studies suggesting higher values due to
You understand that there is a difference between EROI and ROIC? EROI doesn’t capture the economic returns of the various energy sources, it captures the efficiency of converting the energy source into usable energy
It is a nonsensical metric to be using when determining which form of energy is most economical / delivers the cheapest energy cost - which is clearly impacted by a very broad range of factors including location….
Given the typical person's either inability or unwillingness to do basic research or educate themselves on key energy issues, it appears that the transition crowd has decided simply lying about the numbers is the easiest solution to make their cases.
thanks for this brief expose on their claims
Society's misunderstanding of energy could take a long time to correct, especially in the U.S. where the government just prints money to spend on whatever it wants, like wind and solar subsidies. How that affects energy investors, well, that's why I subscribe because I don't know.
We just have to remain unemotional and and try to profit from the stupidity of it all....
Great stuff Ferguson! Hydrogen is the most quixotic nonsense out there. Thanks, TMacro06
Grok is definitely less biased: Same request for X AI
List a ranking of Energy Sources by their typical EROI (Energy Return on Investment) values:
Answer
Here's a general ranking of energy sources by their typical EROI (Energy Return on Investment) values, based on the information available up to 2024:
Nuclear Energy - Often cited with a high EROI, but exact numbers can vary widely due to differences in technology, accounting for energy costs (like enrichment methods), and whether one includes the energy for decommissioning and waste storage. Estimates suggest an EROI around 75 when considering centrifuge enrichment, but this can be controversial.
Hydropower - Typically has a high EROI due to its long lifespan and low operational energy costs, often cited around 35 or higher.
Coal - Has a relatively high EROI when considering only the extraction; however, when converted to electricity, the EROI drops due to conversion losses, roughly around 30 at the mine mouth, and lower when looking at electricity production.
Natural Gas (Closed-Cycle Gas Turbine) - An EROI that can be quite high at the wellhead, but when used in electricity generation, it's adjusted for efficiency, leading to values like 28.
Oil - Historically high, but as easier-to-reach reserves deplete, the EROI has been declining. At its peak, oil might have had an EROI around 30 or higher, but modern figures, especially for new or unconventional sources like tar sands, can be much lower.
Solar Thermal - An EROI around 9, considering the energy costs for manufacturing and maintenance.
Wind - Wind energy systems can have an EROI around 4 or higher, but this value improves significantly when considering lifetime energy production versus energy invested in manufacturing, installation, and maintenance.
Solar Photovoltaic (PV) - The EROI varies widely with location, technology, and method of calculation but is generally improving with technological advances. Estimates have ranged widely, but as of recent data, an EROI might be around 2 to 9, with newer studies suggesting higher values due to
Thats a far more balanced overview. Like how can use this question to assess AIs
Claude 3's Haiku:
Hydroelectric Power: 40-200+
Coal: 30-80
Oil and Gas: 20-70 (global average around 35)
Nuclear Power: 5-15
Wind: 18-20 (onshore), 12-18 (offshore)
Solar Photovoltaic (PV): 6-12
Concentrated Solar Power (CSP): 8-10
Geothermal: 5-12
Wave and Tidal Power: 5-12
Biomass and Biofuels: 1-10
As for ChatGPT the amount of woke that thing spews is absurd. Trying to hold it accountable for its nonsense is like nailing Jell-O to a tree.
Yes similar to the whole Gemini disaster it's clear these AI still have bias.
Great Stuff. I the opening articles and video on energy were very helpful. Cheers!
not sure were i heeard it. vaclav smeal etc . but hydrogen is a very short chain just h so it leaks very easy .its impossible to keep in a pipe etc
You understand that there is a difference between EROI and ROIC? EROI doesn’t capture the economic returns of the various energy sources, it captures the efficiency of converting the energy source into usable energy
It is a nonsensical metric to be using when determining which form of energy is most economical / delivers the cheapest energy cost - which is clearly impacted by a very broad range of factors including location….
As that great hard working thinker George Costanza said "It's not a lie, if you believe it!" He must of been referring to RE!